Main.StillToBeIdentifiedCassirersInOber-Glogau History

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November 14, 2014, at 09:35 AM by 203.206.122.72 -
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There's one of these terrible txt-transscriptions with lots of missreadings by the computer, but it's better than nothing:
to:
There's one of these terrible text-transcriptions with lots of missreadings by the computer, but it's better than nothing:
November 14, 2014, at 04:57 AM by 125.209.160.85 -
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*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida Crämer (Krämer), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
to:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida Crämer (Krämer), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years too early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
February 10, 2013, at 10:51 AM by 203.206.116.10 -
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(:Speculations: L:)(:Places: L :)(:ToBeIdentified: L:)
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(:Speculations: L:)(:Places: L :)(:StillToBeIdentified: L:)
February 10, 2013, at 10:39 AM by 203.206.116.10 -
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(:Speculations: L:)(:Places: L :)
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(:Speculations: L:)(:Places: L :)(:ToBeIdentified: L:)
February 10, 2013, at 09:26 AM by 203.206.116.10 -
January 20, 2013, at 07:01 AM by 101.171.170.149 -
Changed line 58 from:
(:Speculations: L:)
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(:Speculations: L:)(:Places: L :)
January 20, 2013, at 07:01 AM by 101.171.170.149 -
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(:Places: L :)(:Speculations: L:)
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(:Speculations: L:)
January 10, 2013, at 11:57 PM by 202.67.103.43 -
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We have a record of a bequest (date unknown[^Expat:  I couldn't find the exact date the donations to the Seminar were made. Perhaps this is hidden somewhere in the rotten computer-transscription (I haven't studied it patiently).^] to the Jewish-Theological Seminar Foundation in Breslau in memory as follows:
to:
We have a record of a bequest (date unknown)[^Expat:  I couldn't find the exact date the donations to the Seminar were made. Perhaps this is hidden somewhere in the rotten computer-transscription (I haven't studied it patiently).^] to the Jewish-Theological Seminar Foundation in Breslau in memory as follows:
Changed line 52 from:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son Moritz2Cassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: Remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
to:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son Moritz2Cassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen (although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs").[^Expat: Remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^].
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(:title Still to be identified Cassirers In Oberglogau:)
Changed line 37 from:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of Salmon2Cassirer and [[RoselCraemer|Rosel KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
to:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of Salomon2Cassirer and [[RoselCraemer|Rosel KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
Changed line 50 from:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son Moritz2Cassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
to:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son Moritz2Cassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: Remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
Changed line 40 from:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
to:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida Crämer (Krämer), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
Changed line 37 from:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of Salmon2Cassirer and [[RoselCraemer|KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
to:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of Salmon2Cassirer and [[RoselCraemer|Rosel KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
Changed line 40 from:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
to:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
Changed line 37 from:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of SalmonCassirer and [[RoselCraemer|KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
to:
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of Salmon2Cassirer and [[RoselCraemer|KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
Changed lines 40-41 from:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of SalomonCassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
to:
*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of Salomon2Cassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).
Changed line 46 from:
*SiegfriedCassirer (brother of MarkusCassirer) married Henriette Fischer (1821-1891)
to:
*SiegfriedCassirer (brother of MarkusCassirer) married HenrietteFischer (1821-1891)
Changed line 50 from:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son MoritzCassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
to:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son Moritz2Cassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
Changed line 50 from:
Moses2Cassirer married Eva Fischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son MoritzCassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
to:
Moses2Cassirer married EvaFischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son MoritzCassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).
Changed line 48 from:
*HenrietteFisher's sister EvaFischer married MosesCassirer.  We do not know how MosesCassirer related to the MarkusCassirer line but it is reasonable to suppose he was another son of MauscheCassirer.
to:
*HenrietteFisher's sister EvaFischer married Moses Cassirer who I identify tentatively with Moses2Cassirer above.
Changed lines 27-31 from:
We have a record of a bequest  to the Jewish-Theological Seminar Foundation in Breslau in memory as follows:


//Parents//
Moses Cassirer (d. 17 Sep 1852
to:
We have a record of a bequest (date unknown[^Expat:  I couldn't find the exact date the donations to the Seminar were made. Perhaps this is hidden somewhere in the rotten computer-transscription (I haven't studied it patiently).^] to the Jewish-Theological Seminar Foundation in Breslau in memory as follows:


//Parents//\\
Moses Cassirer (d. 17 Sep 1852\\
Changed lines 34-35 from:
//Children//
Ida Cassirer      (d. 23 Dec 1863)
to:
//Children//\\
Ida Cassirer      (d. 23 Dec 1863)\\
Changed lines 38-60 from:
D (or O) Cohen

*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of SalomonCassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried-II-Cassirer (son of Moses-II-Cassirer).



Leopold's father SalomonCassirer first married Rosel CRÄMER (KRÄMER)
and it was out of that marriage that Siegfried Cassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married ErnestineWachsmann from whence sprung Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from JohannaGoerke.

Now I see that there was an
Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of SalomonWachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer, the daughter of LoebelMosesCassirer (b 1809), son of MosesLoebelCassirer (married EvaFischer)  Eva was the sister of HenrietteFischer who married SiegfriedCassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of MarkusCassirer).

So - I hadn't realised the potential connection between Ernestine Wachsmann and this already recorded line! But it was already in my database!!!! 
  Ernestine marrying and unidentified Cassirer. But of course he is identified as SalomonCassirer.  So now I have corrected that and I understand much more.

Now
the mysterious Eva Cassirer (d. 23 Sep 1852) and Moses Cassirer (died 17 Sep 1852).  I do not have a Moses Cassirer in the right time. Nor do I have his wife Eva - (Eva Wachsmann is too late b 1859).  They appear to have two sons  - Siegfried Cassirer and D. Cohn (by different marriages of Eva) or as you say the Messrs is wrong.  Nor do either of my 2 Siegfried Cassirers meet the requirements.  They have different fathers and are too early.

Ober Glogau is one of our Cassirerische places and only about 20 km from Gogolin where the above Cassirers (Leopold, Siegfried) were.  T'is a fascinating mystery but my guess is that Moses was a son of MauscheCassirer (1760-1795), grandson of LoebelMosesCassirer and a brother of SalomonCassirer (1810-1817) and that Moses was born around 1810 and married Eva ? around 1830, dying in 1852.  I don't know who Eva was, nor who Cohn was nor how D. Cohn came to have a mutual mother.  The other possibility is that D Cohn (daughter of Eva) married Herr Cohn and the Messrs is wrong.  Should have been Herr Siegfried und Frau Cohn or whatever....  although it seems a bit odd that they would get that wrong.

**Expat:**

Now to the little details of the discovered Cassirers at [[Main.Glogowek|Oberglogau]]:

* I couldn't find the exact date the donations to the Seminar were made. Perhaps this is hidden somewhere in the rotten computer-transscription (I haven't studied it patiently).

*remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'
to:
\\D (or O) Cohen

*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son of SalomonCassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried2Cassirer (son of Moses2Cassirer).

[[Main.Glogowek|Oberglogau]] is one of our known Cassirer regions and only about 20 km from [[Gogolin]].  The most likely match is this:

We have on record the following:

*SiegfriedCassirer (brother of MarkusCassirer)
married Henriette Fischer (1821-1891)

*HenrietteFisher's sister EvaFischer married MosesCassirer.  We do not know how MosesCassirer related
to the MarkusCassirer line but it is reasonable to suppose he was another son of MauscheCassirer.

Moses2Cassirer married
Eva Fischer and in due course had a son Loebel2Cassirer (7 Mar 1809-bef 1849)[^Moses2Cassirer and EvaFischer in turn had a son MoritzCassirer (4 Sep 1829-8 Mar 1830) who thus died in his first year^].  We have no record of their other children but they could well have included Ida, Siegfried and daughter O or D Cohen although mysteriously Siegfried and D Cohen are referred to as "Messrs"[^Expat: *remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'^]).

Changed lines 25-32 from:
**Site Editor**

There is an Ida Cassirer in metastudies - it is Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER) who married LeopoldCassirer
in 1858.

Leopold's father SalomonCassirer first married Rosel CRÄMER
(KRÄMER) and it was out of that marriage that SiegfriedCassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married ErnestineWachsmann from whence sprung Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from JohannaGoerke.

Now I see that there was an Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of SalomonWachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer, the daughte
of LoebelMosesCassirer (b 1809), son of MosesLoebelCassirer (married EvaFischer) - what an inbred lot they are!  Eva was the sister of HenrietteFischer who married SiegfriedCassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of MarkusCassirer).
to:
**Site Editor**  Summary

We have a record of a bequest  to the Jewish-Theological Seminar Foundation
in Breslau in memory as follows:


//Parents//
Moses Cassirer
(d. 17 Sep 1852
Eva ?       
         (d. 23 Sep 1852)

//Children//
Ida Cassirer      (d. 23 Dec 1863)
+
Siegfried Cassirer[^This cannot be  Siegfried2Cassirer son of SalmonCassirer and [[RoselCraemer|KRÄMER]] - since these are the wrong parents^]
D (or O) Cohen

*There is an identified Ida Cassirer - born Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER), who married LeopoldCassirer (son
of SalomonCassirer and Ernestine Wachsmann) in 1858.  At best this would make her a daughter in law not daughter, which is a possible translation error.[^Expat: Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.^]  But it is hard to see the scenario where she becomes even a daughter in law to either this Moses (who seems not to be MosesLoebelCassirer)[^MosesLoebelCassirer (d. 28 Apr 1837) died 15 years to early to be the Moses in this record and he married Pesel Bat Salomon not Eva^] or if the meaning is different to this Siegfried-II-Cassirer (son of Moses-II-Cassirer).



Leopold's father SalomonCassirer first married Rosel CRÄMER (KRÄMER) and it was out of that marriage that Siegfried Cassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married ErnestineWachsmann from whence sprung Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from JohannaGoerke.

Now I see that there was an Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of SalomonWachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer, the daughter of LoebelMosesCassirer (b 1809), son of MosesLoebelCassirer (married EvaFischer)
  Eva was the sister of HenrietteFischer who married SiegfriedCassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of MarkusCassirer).
Changed line 62 from:
* Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.
to:
[^#^]
Changed line 37 from:
Ober Glogau is one of our Cassirerische places and only about 20 km from Gogolin where the above Cassirers (Leopold, Siegfried) were.  T'is a fascinating mystery but my guess is that Moses was a son of Mausche Cassirer (1760-1795), grandson of Loebel Moses Cassirer and a brother of Salomon Cassirer (1810-1817) and that Moses was born around 1810 and married Eva ? around 1830, dying in 1852.  I don't know who Eva was, nor who Cohn was nor how D. Cohn came to have a mutual mother.  The other possibility is that D Cohn (daughter of Eva) married Herr Cohn and the Messrs is wrong.  Should have been Herr Siegfried und Frau Cohn or whatever....  although it seems a bit odd that they would get that wrong.
to:
Ober Glogau is one of our Cassirerische places and only about 20 km from Gogolin where the above Cassirers (Leopold, Siegfried) were.  T'is a fascinating mystery but my guess is that Moses was a son of MauscheCassirer (1760-1795), grandson of LoebelMosesCassirer and a brother of SalomonCassirer (1810-1817) and that Moses was born around 1810 and married Eva ? around 1830, dying in 1852.  I don't know who Eva was, nor who Cohn was nor how D. Cohn came to have a mutual mother.  The other possibility is that D Cohn (daughter of Eva) married Herr Cohn and the Messrs is wrong.  Should have been Herr Siegfried und Frau Cohn or whatever....  although it seems a bit odd that they would get that wrong.
Changed lines 27-33 from:
ow - first on the technical stuff. There is an Ida Cassirer in metastudies - it is Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER) who married Leopold Cassirer in 1858.

Leopold's father Salomon Cassirer first married Rosel CRÄMER (KRÄMER) and it was out of that marriage that Siegfried Cassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married Ernestine Wachsmann from whence sprung
Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from Johanna Goerke.

Now you really have me thinking.  For now I see that there was an Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of Salomon Wachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer,
the daughte of Loebel Cassirer (b 1809), son of Moses Cassirer (married Eva Fischer) - what an inbred lot they are!  Eva was the sister of Henriette Fishcher who married Siegfried Cassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of Markus).

So - I hadn't realised the potential connection between Ernestine Wachsmann and this already recorded line! But it was already in my database!!!!    Ernestine marrying and unidentified Cassirer. But of course he is identified as Salomon Cassirer
.  So now I have corrected that and I understand much more.
to:
There is an Ida Cassirer in metastudies - it is Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER) who married LeopoldCassirer in 1858.

Leopold's father SalomonCassirer first
married Rosel CRÄMER (KRÄMER) and it was out of that marriage that SiegfriedCassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married ErnestineWachsmann from whence sprung Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from JohannaGoerke.

Now I see that there was an Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of SalomonWachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer, the daughte of LoebelMosesCassirer (b 1809), son of MosesLoebelCassirer (married EvaFischer) - what an inbred lot they are!  Eva was
the sister of HenrietteFischer who married SiegfriedCassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of MarkusCassirer).

So - I hadn't realised the potential connection between Ernestine Wachsmann and this already recorded line! But it was already in my database!!!! 
  Ernestine marrying and unidentified Cassirer. But of course he is identified as SalomonCassirer.  So now I have corrected that and I understand much more.
Changed lines 1-2 from:
Expat writes:
to:
From a dialogue between Expat and site editor:

**Expat:**

Changed lines 18-19 from:
[27. (by) Messrs. Siegfried Cassirer and D. Cohen from Ober-Glogau, in memory of their parents Moses Cassirer, died September 17, 1852, and Eva Cassirer, died September 23, 1852, and their daughter Ida, died December 23, 1863.]
to:

which translates as:

27
. (by) Messrs. Siegfried Cassirer and D. Cohen from Ober-Glogau, in memory of their parents Moses Cassirer, died September 17, 1852, and Eva Cassirer, died September 23, 1852, and their daughter Ida, died December 23, 1863.
Added lines 25-40:
**Site Editor**

ow - first on the technical stuff. There is an Ida Cassirer in metastudies - it is Ida CRÄMER (KRÄMER) who married Leopold Cassirer in 1858.

Leopold's father Salomon Cassirer first married Rosel CRÄMER (KRÄMER) and it was out of that marriage that Siegfried Cassirer came into being - that is the Siegfried referred to here, and then married Ernestine Wachsmann from whence sprung Leopold. I now have some birth and death certificates going back to Leopold - but they only arrived yesterday from Johanna Goerke.

Now you really have me thinking.  For now I see that there was an Eva Wachsmann, who is the daughter of Salomon Wachsmann and married Frimmel Cassirer, the daughte of Loebel Cassirer (b 1809), son of Moses Cassirer (married Eva Fischer) - what an inbred lot they are!  Eva was the sister of Henriette Fishcher who married Siegfried Cassirer (son of Moses Ben Loebel Cassirer - brother of Markus).

So - I hadn't realised the potential connection between Ernestine Wachsmann and this already recorded line! But it was already in my database!!!!    Ernestine marrying and unidentified Cassirer. But of course he is identified as Salomon Cassirer.  So now I have corrected that and I understand much more.

Now the mysterious Eva Cassirer (d. 23 Sep 1852) and Moses Cassirer (died 17 Sep 1852).  I do not have a Moses Cassirer in the right time. Nor do I have his wife Eva - (Eva Wachsmann is too late b 1859).  They appear to have two sons  - Siegfried Cassirer and D. Cohn (by different marriages of Eva) or as you say the Messrs is wrong.  Nor do either of my 2 Siegfried Cassirers meet the requirements.  They have different fathers and are too early.

Ober Glogau is one of our Cassirerische places and only about 20 km from Gogolin where the above Cassirers (Leopold, Siegfried) were.  T'is a fascinating mystery but my guess is that Moses was a son of Mausche Cassirer (1760-1795), grandson of Loebel Moses Cassirer and a brother of Salomon Cassirer (1810-1817) and that Moses was born around 1810 and married Eva ? around 1830, dying in 1852.  I don't know who Eva was, nor who Cohn was nor how D. Cohn came to have a mutual mother.  The other possibility is that D Cohn (daughter of Eva) married Herr Cohn and the Messrs is wrong.  Should have been Herr Siegfried und Frau Cohn or whatever....  although it seems a bit odd that they would get that wrong.

**Expat:**

Changed line 51 from:
(:pagelist link={$FullName} fmt=#title:)
to:
(:pagelist link={$FullName} fmt=#title:)
Changed line 10 from:
*The interesting lines are (rather to the end of the txt-version):
to:
*The interesting lines are (rather to the end of the text-version):
Changed lines 8-9 from:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau - Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. (Taschenbuch)
Marcus Brann (Autor), Peter Maser (Vorwort) ]]
to:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau - Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. (Taschenbuch) Marcus Brann (Autor), Peter Maser (Vorwort) ]]
Changed line 8 from:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau - Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. [Taschenbuch]
to:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau - Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. (Taschenbuch)
Changed line 8 from:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau.: Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. [Taschenbuch]
to:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau - Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. [Taschenbuch]
Changed lines 8-9 from:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell]]
to:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell|Geschichte des Jüdisch-Theologischen Seminars (Fraenckel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau.: Festschrift zum fünfzigjährigen Jubiläum der Anstalt. [Taschenbuch]
Marcus Brann (Autor), Peter Maser (Vorwort)
]]
Deleted line 31:
Deleted lines 0-2:
[[Main.Glogowek|Oberglogau]]

Changed line 14 from:
'27. (von) den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau,
to:
'27. (von) den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu [[Main.Glogowek|Ober-Glogau]],
Changed lines 20-21 from:
Now to the little details of the discovered Cassirers at Oberglogau:
to:
Now to the little details of the discovered Cassirers at [[Main.Glogowek|Oberglogau]]:
Deleted line 30:
Changed line 1 from:
[[Main.Glogowek|Ober-Glogau]]
to:
[[Main.Glogowek|Oberglogau]]
Deleted lines 3-6:
(:Places: L :)(:Speculations: L:)
//Pages linked to this page//
(:pagelist link={$FullName} fmt=#title:)

Added lines 30-34:

(:Places: L :)(:Speculations: L:)
//Pages linked to this page//
(:pagelist link={$FullName} fmt=#title:)

Deleted lines 8-9:

Now, because it's a bit late I will send you just one little detail I've found today which might be interesting to fill up some genealogical lacuna:
Changed lines 1-36 from:
[[Main.Glogowek|Ober-Glogau]]
to:
[[Main.Glogowek|Ober-Glogau]]


(:Places: L :)(:Speculations: L:)
//Pages linked to this page//
(:pagelist link={$FullName} fmt=#title:)

Expat writes:

Now, because it's a bit late I will send you just one little detail I've found today which might be interesting to fill up some genealogical lacuna:

There's one of these terrible txt-transscriptions with lots of missreadings by the computer, but it's better than nothing:

*[[http://archive.org/stream/geschichtedesj00branuoft/geschichtedesj00branuoft_djvu.txt]]

*At amazon there's a new facsimile of this where at least you may read the correct title:
[[http://www.amazon.de/Geschichte-J%C3%BCdisch-Theologischen-Seminars-Fraenckelsche-Stiftung/dp/3487139480/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357336189&sr=1-1-spell]]

*The interesting lines are (rather to the end of the txt-version):

Verzeichnis der zu Gunsten des Seminars errichteten Stiftungen und Legate. [List of foundations and bequests in favor of the Seminar, i.e.: Jewish-Theological Seminar (Fraenkel'sche Stiftung) in Breslau]

'27. (von) den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau,
zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852. und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'
[27. (by) Messrs. Siegfried Cassirer and D. Cohen from Ober-Glogau, in memory of their parents Moses Cassirer, died September 17, 1852, and Eva Cassirer, died September 23, 1852, and their daughter Ida, died December 23, 1863.]

Interesting point: Do 'Messrs.' Cassirer and Cohn have the same parents? Or is 'D. Cohn' rather Siegfried's wife, and 'Messr.' is just a bureaucratic routine-slip?

Now to the little details of the discovered Cassirers at Oberglogau:

* I couldn't find the exact date the donations to the Seminar were made. Perhaps this is hidden somewhere in the rotten computer-transscription (I haven't studied it patiently).

*remember the possibility of missreadings, especially the 'D' of 'Cohn' which might also be an 'O'. If this should be of first importance, then we should look for the facsimile (from some other library through Heidelberg University Library). But the snippet of google-books (in this case from the original text) says the same: ' 27. . den Herren Siegfried Cassirer und D. Cohn zu Ober-Glogau, zum Andenken an ihre Eltern Moses Cassirer, st. 17. September 1852, und Eva Cassirer, st. 23. September 1852, und deren Tochter Ida, st. 23. Dezember 1863.'

* Whilst there is an Ida Cassirer (ne [[IdaKraemer|Ida Krämer]]) in the family tree from the right region,  how can 'Ida', born C-Krämer, be a daughter of Cassirers? It seems she is a daughter-in-law [Schwiegertochter]. So, again a bureaucratic routine-slip. BUT: we shouldn't forget that not all 'participants' in jewish documents spoke the average 'Hochdeutsch' of today's German but mixtures of - e.g. - Yiddish with Czech, Hungarian, Polish etc.. This means that we should count with somehow inventive ad hoc-translations to fit the spoken into the bureaucratic 'Hochdeutsch' printed form.

Added line 1:
[[Main.Glogowek|Ober-Glogau]]


Page last modified on November 14, 2014, at 09:35 AM